Current mood:

hissy fit

the Black Family Tree and wizarding lifespans
This post refers to the latest version of the House of Black Family Tree.

What's my problem with it?

The Blacks have Muggle lifespans!

90 Arcturus (1901-1991)
81 Elladora (1850-1931)
79 Phineas Nigellus (1847-1926)
78 Pollux (1912-1990)
77 Lucretia (1915-1992)
77 Cassiopeia (1915-1992)
75 Sirius (1877-1952)
75 Belvina (1886-1961)
75 Arcturus (1884-1959)
61 Lycoris (1904-1965)
60 Walburga (1925-1985)
57 Dorea (1920-1977)
54 Cygnus (1938-1992)
54 Cygnus (1889-1943)
54 Charis (1919-1973)
53 Regulus (1906-1959)
50 Orion (1929-1979)

This is really making me wonder whether JKR has given up on the whole "longer lifespans for wizards/witches" thing.

Like many other fans, I've considered this a cool and interesting idea. Over the past few years I've taken part in discussions about it (what are the broader social implications of long lifespans, at what age can a witch bear a child, does it apply to Squibs, etc.), read and written fics that accept long lifespans as canon fact, explained it to newbies, overlooked minor inconsistencies - and waited for it to be spelled out in the books, because the original interview quote implied that it would be.

Question: How old is old in the wizarding world, and how old are Professors Dumbledore and McGonagall?

J.K. Rowling responds: Dumbledore is a hundred and fifty, and Professor McGonagall is a sprightly seventy. Wizards have a much longer life expectancy than Muggles. (Harry hasn't found out about that yet.)
[Scholastic.com interview, October 16, 2000]

Well, maybe Harry never will find out about it. Maybe JKR has discarded the idea.

I mean, there's only one book left. Unless long lifespans in general, or Dumbledore's age in particular, contribute some vital plot point - they might never be mentioned. One of those "nice idea at the time, but not strictly necessary" situations. Fair enough, we might say; it happens.

So does that make it canon for wizards/witches to have the same life expectancy as Muggles? Um, perhaps not. JKR went and said it again last year.

George Moore for The Times: How old is Dumbledore?

JK Rowling: I see him as about 150 I have said before that wizards unless they contract some horrible magical disease which does happen...
[ITV interview, July 16, 2005]

We could always find an explanation for isolated canon mentions of early deaths. But now we have the Black Family Tree, showing us a whole pack of purebloods with screamingly Muggle lifespans.

Um. I don't think this can be written off as an "Oh dear, maths" moment by the author.

Do wizarding folk live longer than Muggles or don't they? Yes or no?

If yes, I just don't see how JKR could have forgotten that enough to produce the Black Family Tree.

If no, the Tree is okay - but two interview quotes, five years apart, no longer hold, and a well-established "canon-ish" factoid about the wizarding world gets shot to hell.

Dammit. Wish she'd never mentioned the lifespan thing at all, if it's been discarded... Or has it?


Straws! Grasping at the pretty straws! Give me more straws!

1. Dumbledore's an exceptional case - average wizards/witches don't live to 150?
No, because JKR says it twice, and then we have Professor Marchbanks, who must be even older than Albus.

2. We shouldn't accept Dumbledore's age as 150 until that figure appears in book-canon?
But that's what the fandom has done since 2000. Awful bummer to stop now. Woe!

3. The entire House of Black has contracted "some horrible magical disease"?
Hexed, they are! All of them, and anyone who marries a Black! The Curse of Early Death - all the other purebloods snigger behind their hands at the Blacks. Or something. Um...

4. Purebloods die early - it's only the Muggle-borns and half-bloods who have longer lifespans?
Alas, no. Much as I love Mudblood!Dumbledores, JKR's interview quotes do seem to mean wizards in general living longer than Muggles.

5. JKR's arithmetic is getting worse?
No. Look at all those Blacks dying in their mid-50s to mid-70s - one or two dates might be mixed up, but I can't believe all of them are. Can't believe she could make up that many birth-death dates without thinking: "Wait a minute, wizards are supposed to have a much longer life expectancy than Muggles... Doh!"

6. McTabby needs to chill out and remember that the ages of fictional wizards don't really matter?
Yep, I'm going with that one. *reaches for chocolate*

(Post a new comment)

	triestine 2006-02-21 01:54 pm UTC (link)
	Maybe they're not natural deaths? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	triestine 2006-02-21 01:56 pm UTC (link)
	I mean, maybe they like to stab their parents when they need money or something? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - mctabby, 2006-02-21 02:00 pm UTC

(no subject) - g_shadowslayer, 2006-02-21 02:20 pm UTC

(no subject) - luinthoron, 2006-02-21 02:02 pm UTC

(no subject) - aunty_marion, 2006-02-21 02:55 pm UTC

(no subject) - dancing_moon, 2006-02-21 04:00 pm UTC

(no subject) - psychic_serpent, 2006-02-22 02:49 am UTC

(no subject) - midnitemaraud_r, 2006-02-23 12:16 am UTC

	oblomskaya 2006-02-21 01:55 pm UTC (link)
	Way of life? Heavy drinking? Their cold hearts and maniac-depressive personalities burning them down? Who needs a Curse with folks like Blacks? :)) (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mctabby 2006-02-21 02:04 pm UTC (link)
	Cause of death: family. Okay! :D (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - simmysim, 2006-02-21 02:14 pm UTC

(no subject) - arclevel, 2006-02-22 03:25 am UTC

(no subject) - oblomskaya, 2006-02-22 07:18 am UTC

	grasshopper 2006-02-21 01:56 pm UTC (link)
	I vote for option 5 -- apparently the Blacks also tend to have children at age 13 :\ (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mctabby 2006-02-21 02:07 pm UTC (link)
	But this is equivalent to showing them all reproducing at 13! Naah, her maths can't be that bad - she must have given up on the long lifespans - or has she? *dithers* (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - ajat, 2006-02-22 01:54 am UTC

(no subject) - hasaidreamer, 2006-02-25 05:33 am UTC

	furiosity 2006-02-21 02:02 pm UTC (link)
	The Blacks are all Slytherins (except Sirius) and therefore evil and therefore do not deserve proper wizarding lifespans. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mctabby 2006-02-21 02:08 pm UTC (link)
	I bet you kick puppies and mock kittens in your spare time! Meanie! *cuddles Slytherins* (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - furiosity, 2006-02-21 02:11 pm UTC

(no subject) - ruxi, 2006-02-21 02:13 pm UTC

(no subject) - furiosity, 2006-02-21 02:14 pm UTC

(no subject) - ruxi, 2006-02-21 02:16 pm UTC

(no subject) - furiosity, 2006-02-21 02:17 pm UTC

(no subject) - bonfoi, 2006-02-22 04:49 am UTC

(no subject) - slinkhard, 2006-02-21 05:07 pm UTC

(no subject) - aunty_marion, 2006-02-21 02:52 pm UTC

gehayi 2006-02-21 02:06 pm UTC (link)

I'm just going to ignore the family tree, on the basis that if it's not in the books, it's not canon--it's the author's commentary on her canon. And quite honestly, given JKR's problems with math, ages and timelines, I think it's better if I ignore all of her pronouncements concerning those things which aren't in the books. (I have enough trouble accounting for JKR's mathematical Flints that are IN the books.) (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mctabby 2006-02-21 02:11 pm UTC (link)
	In your own writing, do you accept Dumbledore's age as 150? Longer lifespans in general? It's one of those para-canon "facts" that's really widespread - anyone who grits her teeth and goes hardline about "book canon ONLY" will have people popping up all the time to remind her of what JKR said in interviews. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - gehayi, 2006-02-21 11:54 pm UTC

(no subject) - hasaidreamer, 2006-02-25 05:34 am UTC

The inbreeding, perhaps? ruxi 2006-02-21 02:06 pm UTC (link)

*cautiously emerges from fandom-hibernation* ...mayhap now we finally know that there are some downsides to all the fabulous inbreeding the Blacks are supposed to practise? This applies doubly if you take into account that even those who married into the family - members of distinct and noble pureblood houses themselves - had a modest, not at all noteworthy life span. If so, this might be used as an argument as to Dumbledore's own thin ties to pure magical blood, which'd lead to yet another very nice, very pretteh Dumbledore - Tom parallel. [Bless'im] (Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: The inbreeding, perhaps? flutteringazure 2006-02-21 02:18 pm UTC (link)

I feel a Marriage Law thingy coming up here ;) But yes, inbreeding was one of the first things that came to mind when I looked at the family tree. Also, I can imagine that the Blacks are just vicious bastards (well, not really bastards as such, but you know what I mean...) who like to top off their family members. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was in fact a curse on the House of Black... Can you see how I refuse to believe that JKR forgot about her 'long lifespan' idea *garrr* One of those lovely magical things and she seems to have forgotten about it *headdesk* (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: The inbreeding, perhaps? - mctabby, 2006-02-21 02:19 pm UTC

Re: The inbreeding, perhaps? - flutteringazure, 2006-02-21 02:30 pm UTC

Re: The inbreeding, perhaps? - mctabby, 2006-02-21 02:36 pm UTC

Re: The inbreeding, perhaps? - nightbluesprite, 2006-02-21 07:10 pm UTC

Re: The inbreeding, perhaps? - jodel_from_aol, 2006-02-21 07:48 pm UTC

fourth_rose 2006-02-21 02:13 pm UTC (link)

I'd go with Number 5. She didn't even notice she has 13-year old fathers on her family tree, and many other things contradict book canon too (like Mrs Black being an old woman etc.). JKR and numbers be not friends, and it seems this is another blatant example. Therefore, I'm going to stick with the extended lifespan theory unless she explicitly contradicts it in book 7 (which I doubt she will). Besides, it could always be just the Blacks - there's only so much inbreeding a family can take ;-) (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mctabby 2006-02-21 02:23 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, Mrs Black! Died at 60. If that's an "old woman" - as the portrait implies - then she's a Muggle, dammit. Dumbledore had auburn hair when he was 100! I'd be happy if she mentioned it at all in Book 7. The whole extended lifespan thing has never made it into the books yet. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - gramarye1971, 2006-02-21 05:02 pm UTC

(no subject) - fourth_rose, 2006-02-21 06:44 pm UTC

(no subject) - threeoranges, 2006-02-21 06:41 pm UTC

(no subject) - ex_stateline124, 2006-02-22 01:49 am UTC

	scribophile 2006-02-21 02:19 pm UTC (link)
	I agree with most of the previous posters - my explanation is that it's a result of inbreeding, backstabbing (possibly literally), and becoming Death Eaters. I know it doesn't take into account everyone who married into the family, but it sounds bad to say that my fandom's creator can't do basic addition and subtraction. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mctabby 2006-02-21 02:26 pm UTC (link)
	So you see the Blacks and their associates are exceptions? You accept longer lifespans for wizarding folk in general? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - scribophile, 2006-02-21 02:33 pm UTC

(no subject) - gramarye1971, 2006-02-21 05:00 pm UTC

(no subject) - rory8, 2006-02-22 04:34 pm UTC

madameceleste70 2006-02-21 02:19 pm UTC (link)

Maybe Albus was using the Elixir of Life from the Philosopher's Stone. He did work on it with Flamel. Maybe he felt some of the responsibility for Tom Riddle turning and so he had to stay alive long enough to see his defeat. Though it wouldn't explain Professor Marchbanks. OR The Blacks suffer from some genetic disease because they intermarry in an effort to keep the bloodlines Toujour Pur. Although the family tree doesn't bear that out unless we find out that the first generation on the tapestry was actually born of siblings. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mctabby 2006-02-21 02:39 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, how I wish we could see write the rest of the tapestry! :D (Reply to this) (Parent)

skuf 2006-02-21 02:28 pm UTC (link)

Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if Rowling simply hadn't thought things properly through when she made that map. She really needs a beta!! As far as Dumbledore goes, it is my impression that although wizards have a longer life-span, he is still up there with the oldest of them. I hadn't noticed the 13-year-old father thing - dsljksa! I honestly can't tell if it's on purpose, or if she was having a particularly blonde day :o) ! (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mctabby 2006-02-21 02:40 pm UTC (link)
	The House of Blonde Family Tree. Toujours blonde! :D (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - amberdulen, 2006-02-21 06:10 pm UTC

(no subject) - skuf, 2006-02-21 09:39 pm UTC

(no subject) - fourth_rose, 2006-02-21 06:48 pm UTC

(no subject) - skuf, 2006-02-21 09:37 pm UTC

(no subject) - nightbluesprite, 2006-02-21 07:18 pm UTC

(no subject) - skuf, 2006-02-21 09:37 pm UTC

(no subject) - nightbluesprite, 2006-02-22 02:18 am UTC

(no subject) - skuf, 2006-02-22 09:10 pm UTC

(no subject) - nightbluesprite, 2006-02-23 01:15 am UTC

(no subject) - linwenilid, 2006-02-21 11:04 pm UTC

kennahijja 2006-02-21 02:29 pm UTC (link)

My first reaction also was that perhaps the Blacks tend to get involved in risky dark magic and duelling, therefore dying younger of non-natural causes. And the wizarding world *is* a more dangerous place than the Muggle one. Although I *did* wonder why, if Minerva is 'springy' and 'only' 70, Pomfrey was so worked up over the stunning spells she took 'at her age'... But since both the longevity interview and the Black family tree are not proper 'canon', I think it's fair to take or leave either (or any) of the wizarding age versus ordinary Muggle age. I'm going with the former, 'cause it's much cooller ;). Also, it's only a fictional factoid in a fictional universe - *goes in search for chocolate*. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mctabby 2006-02-21 02:44 pm UTC (link)
	Aaarrgh, that bit about Minerva in OotP! After all the fandom's hoops and loops of speculation/theory about Minerva's age and life story! I think longer lifespans are much cooler too. :D *shares chocolate* (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - rory8, 2006-02-22 04:47 pm UTC

rosina_alcona 2006-02-21 02:36 pm UTC (link)

Longer life spans in comparison to muggles at the time they were alive? Like in the later part of the 19th and the earlier part of the 20th century, life expectancy would have been much worse in the UK due to 2 world wars, killer flu, TB, poor nutrition, endless child bearing etc - surely that's got to impact a bit? They could have got some bombs dropped on them in the Blitz or something. or maybe the Blacks are all slightly insane and throw themselves wholeheartedly at any trouble they can find? : ) (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mctabby 2006-02-21 02:45 pm UTC (link)
	Fair point. :) Retro on the Muggle lifespans! *grasps shiny new straw* (Reply to this) (Parent)

musesfool 2006-02-21 02:39 pm UTC (link)

How final is this copy of the family tree? It seems to me it's an early version, and she was still working things out. Also, if the books and the ancillary materials (interviews, etc.) conflict, I go with the books. So we can just go with the anecdotal evidence in the books that wizards do indeed live longer, but Blacks, alas, die early, possibly due to an excess of assholery in their systems. Or murder. Or inbreeding. Or curses. Or curtains. Otoh, I do like that Walburga (yeesh, no wonder she was so bitter) is older than her husband. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mctabby 2006-02-21 02:50 pm UTC (link)
	I hope it isn't the final version - she might change it! Here it's a case of one ancillary material against another. Longer lifespans have never been mentioned in book-canon. I think the anecdotal evidence in the books tends to contradict the interview assertion that wizards live longer. "an excess of assholery" - nice fic title. :D (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - musesfool, 2006-02-22 03:25 pm UTC

(no subject) - flaxenescapee, 2006-02-22 04:51 am UTC

(no subject) - musesfool, 2006-02-22 03:25 pm UTC

	chocolatepot 2006-02-21 03:20 pm UTC (link)
	Perhaps it has something to do with the inbreeding. I like the idea of them offing their parents, too. (Reply to this)

author_by_night 2006-02-21 03:38 pm UTC (link)

Well... I think JKR either changed her mind after 2000 - goodness knows my mind changes about ideas after six months sometimes - or she meant it's easier for a Wizard to live that long. 150 for a wizard could very well be our 105; no, it's not that common, but it happens. Sadly, though, I think she probably changed her mind. I love JKR, but she's not exactly well known for consistincey. (Reply to this)

ziasudra_fic 2006-02-21 04:01 pm UTC (link)

JKR's general-to-specific inconsistency reminds me of the genealogies in the bible. People were said to live hundreds and hundreds of years, but the moment we zoom in on individuals, such as Abraham and Moses, we realize that their life spans aren't excessively longer than ours. So we can blame JKR for having horrible math, or we can praise her for fitting right into the mindset of ancient literature mythos. Or both ;) Either way, *hands you chocolate* (Reply to this)

	cormallen 2006-02-21 04:09 pm UTC (link)
	< enable crack > Sith they are! Clearly! If the next Black you wish to be, strike down the previous you must! < / end crack > (Reply to this)

	lilith_morgana 2006-02-21 05:17 pm UTC (link)
	BELLATRIX WAS FATHERED BY A 13-YEAR-OLD. For crying out loud. *goes in search of booze* (Reply to this) (Thread)

	apey1013 2006-02-21 05:30 pm UTC (link)
	There seems to be a lot of freakishly young teen pregnancy within the Black line. Yeesh. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - aynthem, 2006-02-21 09:17 pm UTC

(no subject) - lilith_morgana, 2006-02-21 09:30 pm UTC

amorettea 2006-02-21 05:27 pm UTC (link)

I think it's safe to say JKR doesn't think things through. Where are Harry's grandparents and Snape's parents, who would only be in their sixties? And the Weasley's kids grandparents? Even with plain ol' Muggle lifetimes, all these folks should be chugging around. We know Dumbles had to be old cause he was whomping on Grindelwald in the 1940's and he was apparently an adult then but. . . Yeah, she has a lovely imagination and a way with words (just found out the origin of Wizengamot and am impressed) but I don't think she ever planned out all the family lines and never expected to have to do so! Hey, it's a world where every September 1 of every year is a Monday. Regular rules do not apply. Amorette (Reply to this) (Thread)

	apey1013 2006-02-21 05:29 pm UTC (link)
	Hey, it's a world where every September 1 of every year is a Monday. Regular rules do not apply. Word. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - amberdulen, 2006-02-21 06:06 pm UTC

	apey1013 2006-02-21 05:27 pm UTC (link)
	Well, a good bunch of the Blacks are total jerks so I would not be surprised if people kept bumping them off. However, I think it a far more amusing idea that they are just so damn INBRED that they haven't been lasting that long. That, and I think (by the looks of the family tree) that JK really has not paid all that much attention to times, dates, and teh maths. (Reply to this)

	gelsey 2006-02-21 05:31 pm UTC (link)
	Cause of death: unwisely following raging psychopathic maniacs every single time they appear. Or, inherited insanity. I mean, none of them seem that stable at all ... manic depressive, suicide, maybe, deppression, schitzophrenia ... *shrugs* who knows. (Reply to this)

	gileonnen 2006-02-21 05:43 pm UTC (link)
	Clearly Sirius's reckless streak is genetic, and all Blacks are terrible daredevils who are ruining the wizarding average with their early deaths by drowning, carriage accident, automobile accident, hex gone awry, and autoerotic asphyxiation at 79. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	lamiael 2006-02-21 06:35 pm UTC (link)
	...who are ruining the wizarding average... *falls over laughing* (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - nightbluesprite, 2006-02-21 07:23 pm UTC

(no subject) - gileonnen, 2006-02-21 10:09 pm UTC

	amberdulen 2006-02-21 06:05 pm UTC (link)
	I don't think this can be written off as an "Oh dear, maths" moment by the author. I do. I have lost all faith in JKR's math ability. Not that I don't love her. (Reply to this)

	clwshorty01 2006-02-21 06:25 pm UTC (link)
	Well, I'm thinking the Blacks don't live lifestyles that necessarily lead to long lives. Lots of "bad blood" there, plus you've got some of them throwing their lot in with Voldemort... Cathy (Reply to this)

	i_smile 2006-02-21 06:53 pm UTC (link)
	The Blacks probably die of high blood pressure or the effects of leaping before looking. Or, can one's family annoy one to death? (Reply to this)

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